An Interview with Swami Harshananda
Swami Harshananda: Christians often invite me to speak. Some Christian nuns live near here. They wear the ochre sari.
Mary Margaret Funk: Do you have a problem with Christians wearing the sanyasis robe?
Swami Harshananda: Hinduism is a configuration of many cults. Vedas are the unifying authority. As long as there is no active proselytizing, we have no quarrel. We are happy when everyone follows their own internal conversion. We accept all. We have no barriers mentally. I give lectures. There are tears at my presentations on the Gita. I cry when I study deeply about Christ and how he gave himself up on the Cross. Christians and Hindus are in dialogue. Fr. Anthony from the local seminary is doing his Ph.D dissertation on Hinduism. Hinduism has suffered from historical problems. Many Indians, after their conversion to Christianity or Islam, follow an anti-national split. We currently have more problems with Moslems than with Christians. Fundamentalism allows for no dialogue.
If Christian monastics wear the ochre robe to further Indianization —which is to join our culture, observe our values and harmonize —that’s ok. But if Christians feel superior, misappropriate and accept the reverence given by the Hindu people and cheat them and fool themselves, then that’s an appearance but not authentic. We are filled with indignation at fraudulent use of the Hindu customs. They must appreciate the cloth and wear the ochre reverently.
In 1950 at my initiation I was taught three reasons for the ochre color: (1) orange is the color of fire that is life. At initiation this flame represents the life of a renunciate never to be extinguished. (2) Ochre is the color of the earth. It reminds me that all material things will pass away. Non-attachment is my path. (3) A special color is like a dog with a tag. This identifies to myself and others that I belong to a way of life with vows separating me from other ways of life. I live for God and not for the world.
Twenty years ago nuns asked for some help to know the Gayatri Mantra because the last 405 generations were praying to the God of light. We had a common understanding about that universal mantra.
The concepts of Redemption are also identical with the earliest Scriptures: Repent, Render service to God, Repeat the Name of God, Forgiveness.
Mary Margaret Funk: I’m writing a book on the eight Classic Thoughts of John Cassian (food, sex, things, anger, dejection, acedia, vain glory and pride). Do you have a similar list?
Swami Harshananda: The eight Thoughts are the Steps of Yoga. The first two are moral and ethical. (l) speak truth, not stealing—vow poverty, celibacy, not accepting gifts (austerities); (2) Study of Scriptures / devotion to God. You must do yogas before practice of meditation. There are prerequisites to meditation. You need to study Yoga of Patanjali, a brief survey by myself, Swami Harshananda; or the full text Patanjali Yoga Sutras by Swami Pradhavananda published here (Ramakrishna Math, Bangalore-560019). These two books are the sources for what you are asking, i.e. stabilize the mind and reach union with God.
But to be specific: about food—Avoid those foods that are intrinsically harmful to the inner life (meat, alcohol, onions, radishes, garlic). Follow the rules for the unclean. Avoid food that is contaminated by the bad character of the one who prepares or serves it. One should avoid harmful vibrations of another’s attitude. They should be free from indolence and raging passions. You would know that they are ok by their calmness and harmony with all living beings.
About sex—Brahmacharya—First you want the mind to move at the level of God. The Atman transcends the level of sex consciousness. Secondly, we start with young boys in their studies with a strict code of life. We use the austerities of early rising, pure body, mind and speech. We use manual labor to assist in the control of the sexual impulses. Usually the youth of 12-25 years become restless in mind and body without strict discipline. In a ritual we celebrate that we are not the body. The soul passes through many lifetimes both male and female. Sex consciousness is like a shirt—you put it on and take it off through spiritual practice. We like to use the image of a lamp that is dirty or covered with soot. It can be cleansed to see God’s Presence which formerly we could not feel because of impurity.
About things—Common sense prevails in our attitude about things. Human birth is the most valuable time to realize God. Even in heaven or hell there is no past or future. We must make the best of our time granted for spiritual pursuits. To improve body, mind, speech is our task during this lifetime. Use food to keep healthy. Know when to set boundaries, to draw the line. Maintain the body in good condition. For the serious seekers, especially the renunciate, receive only enough gifts for your spiritual well-being. Never take what is offered. Take half. Never ask. Take only what is given. Root out greed, things visible and desires of the heart that are invisible regarding visible things.
About anger—Anger is attachment and desire. There are two causes of anger: (1) when deprived of something, or (2) when someone seems to have made me suffer. Passions and prejudices are obstacles in the spiritual journey. Anger is taking me away from the spiritual path, so I logically need to refrain from anger. Prayer helps. Say: “I can’t overcome this without your help. Please take it away.” Replace anger with devotion. Think of anger as an “Evil God.” I bow my head, but keep at a distance... It helps to make efforts to prepare for good quality of my practices. Listen to sound teachings.
About dejection—We feel dejected when we feel our limitations. The method to reduce and overcome dejection is to reduce desires and wants that make us “need-centered” or even “greed-centered.” Cultivate contentment. We have that marvelous teaching about Karma. It’s the unseen hand that deals the cards about human efforts. Blame ourself and not God. Say to yourself: “In a previous lifetime I made other people or things suffer. Let me reform. As I sow, so will I reap. Let me remedy a past mistake.” Dejection is ego. You need to cultivate “no achievement” attitude. Be humble. Never look at persons as lower than yourself, but those who are more evolved and provide you with aspirations. If you are thinking about worldly matters, look at the poor. If you are looking at spiritual matters, study the great saints. But know that many high saints have ended up in oblivion. Humility is essential. Vivekananda named the Ramakrishna Society after his Master, not himself. Humility attributes the good we see in ourselves to the Glory of God and the mistakes to ourselves.
Regarding the Three Renunciations—In the yogas you dedicate all to God. Sanyasis is to give up all for the sake of God-Realization. A householder sees everything with an attitude that all is from God. Monastics give up all attachment to things and only use whatever helps us go to God. To renounce everything is a synasis. We have a ritual fire that demonstrates that only with God is our life present. All previous past connections are disconnected.
About acedia—We feel that everyone comes to the stage of acedia. It is like climbing a mountain —you go up and then come down for a while, but ultimately you are making progress. This “down” feeling is a natural sequence for climbers. You feel dejected compared to the highest level; but look at the point of origin and take comfort that you have come a long way. In both Buddhist and Hindu cultures manual labor has been removed from the monks so that they can perform spiritual austerities. With the cast system there is an incentive for a lower cast person to want to do the monk’s labor out of reverence. This has not been helpful to the monastic life over the years. One practice I recommend for someone experiencing acedia is to keep company with holy people: Satsang. Repeat the Name of God. The vibrations will heal you.
About vainglory and pride—Study the Bhagavad Gita ch. 2: 54-72 on the characteristics of the Perfect. Pride is the absence of humility. The characteristics of humility are: no boasting, never appear greater than you are. Monks can cheat, but they only cheat themselves and also society that counts on them to be monks. We see many fraudulent monks go to the USA to get quick disciples. A humble monk would never make any comments on their stage in the spiritual life. If anything, they would try to hide their greatness.
Regarding Pure Prayer—We are not able to realize God by self-effort. Prayer in the life of an honest seeker will reveal God. Thou and Thine. Less of world and more of God. The interior practice of prayer helps the self-will to diminish. Images will fall off. God reveals Himself. Without any worry on the part of the individual, images fall off, only light remains. To empty the mind is not for the spiritually uninvolved. Thoughts enter uninvited. One must prepare for meditation by following the thought system in the Scriptures. Only the guru would know if I am qualified and ready to meditate.
Regarding being a sinner—Hinduism speaks to the “lost.” It doesn’t call the individual a sinner. “Seeking” is not an accurate term either, because God is not lost, nor is the individual. “Uncovering the veil,” “clean the lamp,” “wipe the mirror” are better images. We would say that the person is “ignorant.” If we think of being a sinner, it might be a negative concept that makes one weak and perpetuates the attitude.
Mary Margaret Funk: Can gurus read hearts today?
Swami Harshananda: An extraordinary SadGuru could read hearts and transmit by a glance, a touch or a word. Ordinary gurus can size up an individual and see how they are fit for the spiritual life. Their measure of perception is according to the purity of their life. Any pure heart and mind can get this insight. Once a swami asked a disciple about his mantra. The disciple said: “You tell me.” The Swami (a friend of mine) went away and prayed. He came back and gave him a mantra. The disciple reported and showed great progress in the spiritual life. So an ordinary guru can pray and be quite effective in reading hearts. Hinduism is not Poly-theism but has many internal paths with various forms.
Mary Margaret Funk: What is the motivation for celibacy?
Swami Harshananda: All walks of life require celibacy. The Hindu belief is that human energy is one. The spiritual path requires all manifestations of energies to be directed toward God Realization. We believe that celibacy is best imaged like a river that sometimes needs a dam to channel water toward one direction. We channel energies —sublimate lower energies to a higher life. We don’t think much of whether it is male or female energies since we are probably both and have been both several times in a previous life.
Mary Margaret Funk: Do you have a practice of “manifestation of thoughts”?
Swami Harshananda: It is best to manifest thoughts to someone highly evolved. But only manifest thoughts with someone on the same path, e.g. Bhakhti.
Mary Margaret Funk: Thank you for your time. I will study the Patanjali and those chapters in the Bagavad Gita you suggested. It seems that the wisdom stored in the Hindu tradition can be quite helpful to all of us.
Swami Harshananda: Yes, this kind of writing is necessary for the second generation of Hindu immigrants that come to the USA. The parents can’t explain their faith that they learned by living in this culture but is not exported to their new environment. Basic training was in the home and is now lost. I’ve enjoyed this interview.
Mary Margaret Funk: Do you have a problem with Christians wearing the sanyasis robe?
Swami Harshananda: Hinduism is a configuration of many cults. Vedas are the unifying authority. As long as there is no active proselytizing, we have no quarrel. We are happy when everyone follows their own internal conversion. We accept all. We have no barriers mentally. I give lectures. There are tears at my presentations on the Gita. I cry when I study deeply about Christ and how he gave himself up on the Cross. Christians and Hindus are in dialogue. Fr. Anthony from the local seminary is doing his Ph.D dissertation on Hinduism. Hinduism has suffered from historical problems. Many Indians, after their conversion to Christianity or Islam, follow an anti-national split. We currently have more problems with Moslems than with Christians. Fundamentalism allows for no dialogue.
If Christian monastics wear the ochre robe to further Indianization —which is to join our culture, observe our values and harmonize —that’s ok. But if Christians feel superior, misappropriate and accept the reverence given by the Hindu people and cheat them and fool themselves, then that’s an appearance but not authentic. We are filled with indignation at fraudulent use of the Hindu customs. They must appreciate the cloth and wear the ochre reverently.
In 1950 at my initiation I was taught three reasons for the ochre color: (1) orange is the color of fire that is life. At initiation this flame represents the life of a renunciate never to be extinguished. (2) Ochre is the color of the earth. It reminds me that all material things will pass away. Non-attachment is my path. (3) A special color is like a dog with a tag. This identifies to myself and others that I belong to a way of life with vows separating me from other ways of life. I live for God and not for the world.
Twenty years ago nuns asked for some help to know the Gayatri Mantra because the last 405 generations were praying to the God of light. We had a common understanding about that universal mantra.
The concepts of Redemption are also identical with the earliest Scriptures: Repent, Render service to God, Repeat the Name of God, Forgiveness.
Mary Margaret Funk: I’m writing a book on the eight Classic Thoughts of John Cassian (food, sex, things, anger, dejection, acedia, vain glory and pride). Do you have a similar list?
Swami Harshananda: The eight Thoughts are the Steps of Yoga. The first two are moral and ethical. (l) speak truth, not stealing—vow poverty, celibacy, not accepting gifts (austerities); (2) Study of Scriptures / devotion to God. You must do yogas before practice of meditation. There are prerequisites to meditation. You need to study Yoga of Patanjali, a brief survey by myself, Swami Harshananda; or the full text Patanjali Yoga Sutras by Swami Pradhavananda published here (Ramakrishna Math, Bangalore-560019). These two books are the sources for what you are asking, i.e. stabilize the mind and reach union with God.
But to be specific: about food—Avoid those foods that are intrinsically harmful to the inner life (meat, alcohol, onions, radishes, garlic). Follow the rules for the unclean. Avoid food that is contaminated by the bad character of the one who prepares or serves it. One should avoid harmful vibrations of another’s attitude. They should be free from indolence and raging passions. You would know that they are ok by their calmness and harmony with all living beings.
About sex—Brahmacharya—First you want the mind to move at the level of God. The Atman transcends the level of sex consciousness. Secondly, we start with young boys in their studies with a strict code of life. We use the austerities of early rising, pure body, mind and speech. We use manual labor to assist in the control of the sexual impulses. Usually the youth of 12-25 years become restless in mind and body without strict discipline. In a ritual we celebrate that we are not the body. The soul passes through many lifetimes both male and female. Sex consciousness is like a shirt—you put it on and take it off through spiritual practice. We like to use the image of a lamp that is dirty or covered with soot. It can be cleansed to see God’s Presence which formerly we could not feel because of impurity.
About things—Common sense prevails in our attitude about things. Human birth is the most valuable time to realize God. Even in heaven or hell there is no past or future. We must make the best of our time granted for spiritual pursuits. To improve body, mind, speech is our task during this lifetime. Use food to keep healthy. Know when to set boundaries, to draw the line. Maintain the body in good condition. For the serious seekers, especially the renunciate, receive only enough gifts for your spiritual well-being. Never take what is offered. Take half. Never ask. Take only what is given. Root out greed, things visible and desires of the heart that are invisible regarding visible things.
About anger—Anger is attachment and desire. There are two causes of anger: (1) when deprived of something, or (2) when someone seems to have made me suffer. Passions and prejudices are obstacles in the spiritual journey. Anger is taking me away from the spiritual path, so I logically need to refrain from anger. Prayer helps. Say: “I can’t overcome this without your help. Please take it away.” Replace anger with devotion. Think of anger as an “Evil God.” I bow my head, but keep at a distance... It helps to make efforts to prepare for good quality of my practices. Listen to sound teachings.
About dejection—We feel dejected when we feel our limitations. The method to reduce and overcome dejection is to reduce desires and wants that make us “need-centered” or even “greed-centered.” Cultivate contentment. We have that marvelous teaching about Karma. It’s the unseen hand that deals the cards about human efforts. Blame ourself and not God. Say to yourself: “In a previous lifetime I made other people or things suffer. Let me reform. As I sow, so will I reap. Let me remedy a past mistake.” Dejection is ego. You need to cultivate “no achievement” attitude. Be humble. Never look at persons as lower than yourself, but those who are more evolved and provide you with aspirations. If you are thinking about worldly matters, look at the poor. If you are looking at spiritual matters, study the great saints. But know that many high saints have ended up in oblivion. Humility is essential. Vivekananda named the Ramakrishna Society after his Master, not himself. Humility attributes the good we see in ourselves to the Glory of God and the mistakes to ourselves.
Regarding the Three Renunciations—In the yogas you dedicate all to God. Sanyasis is to give up all for the sake of God-Realization. A householder sees everything with an attitude that all is from God. Monastics give up all attachment to things and only use whatever helps us go to God. To renounce everything is a synasis. We have a ritual fire that demonstrates that only with God is our life present. All previous past connections are disconnected.
About acedia—We feel that everyone comes to the stage of acedia. It is like climbing a mountain —you go up and then come down for a while, but ultimately you are making progress. This “down” feeling is a natural sequence for climbers. You feel dejected compared to the highest level; but look at the point of origin and take comfort that you have come a long way. In both Buddhist and Hindu cultures manual labor has been removed from the monks so that they can perform spiritual austerities. With the cast system there is an incentive for a lower cast person to want to do the monk’s labor out of reverence. This has not been helpful to the monastic life over the years. One practice I recommend for someone experiencing acedia is to keep company with holy people: Satsang. Repeat the Name of God. The vibrations will heal you.
About vainglory and pride—Study the Bhagavad Gita ch. 2: 54-72 on the characteristics of the Perfect. Pride is the absence of humility. The characteristics of humility are: no boasting, never appear greater than you are. Monks can cheat, but they only cheat themselves and also society that counts on them to be monks. We see many fraudulent monks go to the USA to get quick disciples. A humble monk would never make any comments on their stage in the spiritual life. If anything, they would try to hide their greatness.
Regarding Pure Prayer—We are not able to realize God by self-effort. Prayer in the life of an honest seeker will reveal God. Thou and Thine. Less of world and more of God. The interior practice of prayer helps the self-will to diminish. Images will fall off. God reveals Himself. Without any worry on the part of the individual, images fall off, only light remains. To empty the mind is not for the spiritually uninvolved. Thoughts enter uninvited. One must prepare for meditation by following the thought system in the Scriptures. Only the guru would know if I am qualified and ready to meditate.
Regarding being a sinner—Hinduism speaks to the “lost.” It doesn’t call the individual a sinner. “Seeking” is not an accurate term either, because God is not lost, nor is the individual. “Uncovering the veil,” “clean the lamp,” “wipe the mirror” are better images. We would say that the person is “ignorant.” If we think of being a sinner, it might be a negative concept that makes one weak and perpetuates the attitude.
Mary Margaret Funk: Can gurus read hearts today?
Swami Harshananda: An extraordinary SadGuru could read hearts and transmit by a glance, a touch or a word. Ordinary gurus can size up an individual and see how they are fit for the spiritual life. Their measure of perception is according to the purity of their life. Any pure heart and mind can get this insight. Once a swami asked a disciple about his mantra. The disciple said: “You tell me.” The Swami (a friend of mine) went away and prayed. He came back and gave him a mantra. The disciple reported and showed great progress in the spiritual life. So an ordinary guru can pray and be quite effective in reading hearts. Hinduism is not Poly-theism but has many internal paths with various forms.
Mary Margaret Funk: What is the motivation for celibacy?
Swami Harshananda: All walks of life require celibacy. The Hindu belief is that human energy is one. The spiritual path requires all manifestations of energies to be directed toward God Realization. We believe that celibacy is best imaged like a river that sometimes needs a dam to channel water toward one direction. We channel energies —sublimate lower energies to a higher life. We don’t think much of whether it is male or female energies since we are probably both and have been both several times in a previous life.
Mary Margaret Funk: Do you have a practice of “manifestation of thoughts”?
Swami Harshananda: It is best to manifest thoughts to someone highly evolved. But only manifest thoughts with someone on the same path, e.g. Bhakhti.
Mary Margaret Funk: Thank you for your time. I will study the Patanjali and those chapters in the Bagavad Gita you suggested. It seems that the wisdom stored in the Hindu tradition can be quite helpful to all of us.
Swami Harshananda: Yes, this kind of writing is necessary for the second generation of Hindu immigrants that come to the USA. The parents can’t explain their faith that they learned by living in this culture but is not exported to their new environment. Basic training was in the home and is now lost. I’ve enjoyed this interview.
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Sr. Mary Margaret Funk, OSB, was the executive director of the MID board from 1989-2004. She was prioress at Our Lady of Grace Monastery in Beech Grove, Indiana and is the author of a number of books, including Thoughts Matter and Islam Is . . ..